Rocket:
Last week, an educational study from the University of California-Irvine characterized the current crop of university students as ‘the entitled’. At least, that’s a common belief from a student’s perspective. They believe that they should be entitled to good grades and recognition, even merit-based awards, as long as they show up for class. Actually some have the same expectation if they are merely on the class list.
That same sense of entitlement seems ingrained in certain members of the Montreal Canadiens based on their place of birth.
Guillaume Latendresse is already revered by a legion of fans and media alike. But exactly, what has he accomplished so far in his young career? By normal standards, Latendresse’s development would be considered sub par. But Latendresse is a member of the Montreal Canadiens, so normal is tossed out the window.
Let’s take a look back. Guillaume Latendresse graduated from junior with very high expectations. Red Line Report is the premier independent scouting service for the NHL and is used by GM’s from almost every team. In the final 2005 pre-draft ranking , Red Line Report listed Latendresse as the #6 forward available just behind Anze Kopitar.
Here’s is RLR’s detailed assessment of Latendresse:
“The biggest and strongest power winger this year is Guillaume Latendresse, who is not only huge at 6-2/220 pounds, but also freakishly strong. He’s impossible to move off the puck, and few even attempt to drive him out of the crease. Though not at all dirty, Latendresse often injures opposing defensemen with the sheer force of his crushing hits in the corners and along the walls. He’s a heavy-footed skater, but has soft, quick hands and a nice release on his shot.”
Quite high praise indeed!
Despite the high praise, NHL GM’s were not biting. Their own files contained notes about Latendresse’s slow foot speed, poor work ethic, and negative attitude. Therefore Guillaume fell from a rather lofty top ten ranking to being picked #45 overall. Latendresse was selected by the Montreal Canadiens after Bob Gainey traded up for the opportunity to get him.
The Canadiens brass was already feeling the heat from the francophone press for Gainey’s selection of a goaltender with their 1st pick. The media gurus had been advocating that Gainey select Gilbert Brule for weeks and were shocked (and very critical) when he didn’t follow their advice lock-step. As we all know, the goaltender is none other than Carey Price, now franchise player of the Canadiens.
Most assumed that Latendresse would return to his junior team, the Drummondville Voltigeurs, or spend a year or two as a member of the Bulldogs to develop his game and work on his shortcomings. We would soon learn that the name on the back of his sweater would be his ‘Get Out of Hamilton Free’ card.
Latendresse’s lack of performance or not living up to his promise has not yielded trips to the AHL and only on rare occasions, to the press box. Consequently, Gui’s career progress has stalled, or perhaps never really got started. As one journalist commented “In his case, Latendresse’s career was in a holding pattern at best. He was still young at 21, but he was not progressing.”
Latendresse, as billed in the Red Line Report, has exceptional potential. Unfortunately, his billing as a top power forward with soft hands has not come close to being fully realized. Gui does not consistently play physical and in the first two years, had a reputation around the league as a cheap shot artist. He has also gone looking for the big hit at the expense of putting himself out of position. He seems allergic to the blue ice as he doesn’t go to the front of the net. Gui will park himself at the side of the net but must rely on the 1 in 10 times that rebounds come in his direction rather than parking himself at the top of the crease to screen and for deflections.
Latendresse doesn’t play well without the puck and has not made a commitment to being a good two-way player. His foot speed is improved but remains relatively slow. The biggest surprise is that his supposed soft hands haven’t been able to convert more scoring chances even when playing with world class passers like Tanguay and Koivu.
At the end of last season, Bob Gainey and Guy Carbonneau met with Latendresse to urge him to work on his skating and balance over the summer, something that they had mentioned to Gui in previous meetings. As Carbonneau said, “We tried that earlier; we tried two years ago and he was supposed to do it.” But he didn’t. That old criticism of work ethic seemed to be a concern again.
To his credit, Latendresse did complete 35 hours to power skating last summer. The result has been a marginal improvement in his skating. But devoting the equivalent of a work week to improving his foot speed over the past 3 summers is not nearly enough.
When asked, revered hockey analyst Pierre McGuire consistently refers to the development path of Latendresse as the Canadiens biggest mistake over the past few years. At the start of this year, McGuire said that the mistakes could have been somewhat mitigated by sending Latendresse to Hamilton for 20-25 games. McGuire felt that during the pre-season that Max Pacioretty had earned the chance to stay with the team, and had moved past Latendresse.
When asked about the possibility of going to Hamilton, Latendresse believed it couldn’t happen to a third year player. His response wasn’t that he had earned the right to stay but instead reflected a sense of entitlement.
Even Guy Carbonneau feels that the competition is catching up to Latendresse. Carbonneau said, “He sees the competition. I don’t think that three years ago, when he came up, that we had the depth we do now. Last year, he realized if he does not get better he would be playing on the fourth line again.”
I look at the Red Line analysis of Latendresse’s potential. That’s exactly the kind of player I want to see in the Canadiens line-up. But it won’t happen by itself. It requires a lot of work. My fear is that all the potential could be lost as Latendresse is leaning towards the same fate as Mike Ribeiro.
Ribeiro is thriving now and producing in Dallas but such success would never have been possible for him in Montreal given Mike’s attitude. Ribeiro is another native Quebecer who’s early career suffered from a sense of entitlement while with the Canadiens.
Ribeiro was another player who was adored in Montreal just for stepping on the ice. As a consequence, Ribeiro had poor work ethic, was disruptive in the dressing room, and at best, only had inconsistent performance. Ribeiro was another poor skater who refused to take part in off-season training programs and enjoyed an overzealous social life with Jose Theodore.
It must have been a shock to Ribeiro when he arrived in Dallas. Unlike Montreal, he wasn’t praised by the media just for being on the ‘class list’. The Dallas fans didn’t chant his name regardless of performance to insulate him from scrutiny. It was only after a few private ‘chats’ with Brenden Morrow that Ribeiro woke up and had an attitude adjustment. It resulted in a big improvement in his performance.
Guillaume Latendresse is young and has real potential to be a force on this team. But it will only come with hard work on his part. Yes, Latendresse had several second assists while playing with Koivu and Tanguay, a pairing that doesn’t need any more assists. They need a finisher. Interestingly enough, some of Latendresse’s best play, being physical and working hard, has come when he was playing on the 4th line. When suitably motivated, I believe that Latendresse can progress and perhaps live up to his true potential. But if his mind drifts into the sense of entitlement, Gui will be a very popular underachiever.
Check out a very good article by Habster written last Spring on the same topic:
Are The Canadiens Hindering Latendresse’s Development?
He has more points this year than the overhyped former #10 overall pick Andrei Kostitsyn, and is over 2 years younger. I’m not sure what you expected from Latendresse, but I think he is the second best young player to enter the Habs lineup in several years. Just behind Carey Price. I think the last teenager to play for the Habs regularly was Brisebois. Before that Stephane Richer, Eric Desjardins, and Mathieu Scheider. That is pretty good company.
Overhyped? Have you read about Latendresse in the French press?
I think you are helping to make my point rob. You wish to give Latendresse recognition just because he is part of that ‘class list’ due to his age. And many would say that he was a part of the Canadiens at that age because Gainey and Carbonneau made a mistake with his development plan.
My expectations for Latendresse are quite modest actually. Ideally, I would have liked to see Latendresse develop his skills and his game in Hamilton, but that will be difficult now. I would like to see him work hard on the 4th line, and make steady improvements in his skating, defensive play, positioning, playing without the puck, physical game and scoring touch/finish. Then he can grow into his role. The consensus seems to be that Latendresse’s development has stalled. Even his coach says that. I would like to see him devote the time and effort to make the necessary improvements to his game.
Leaving him off the 2nd line puts less pressure on him to produce.
You seem to have a thing against Andrei Kostitsyn but I’m surprised that you used him as a comparator. Yes, Latendresse has 1 more point than Andrei so far this year. You will also know that Andrei had 56 points last year to Gui’s 27 points. In the playoffs, AK had 8 points and GL had only 1 point. (Incidentally Sergei K had the same number of points as Latendresse last season but in 21 fewer games.)
Rob,
I think you have something against AK-46 as you always bring his name up in potential trade deals.
I agree he has started slowly this season partly due to the disfunctional manner in which the KPK line has played this season.
Don’t forget that Carbo wasn’t patience enough with the line at the beginning of the season. He has re-united the line and they seem to be re-kindling the chemistry from last season.
I would rather trade Guillaume Latendresse who doesn’t have the same skill set as Kostitsyn…….not even close regardless of their two year age difference.
If Guillaume hasn’t figured out how to greatly improve his foot speed or two way game in the last 2+ years, then I wouldn’t hold your breath in the future.
Here was my opinion/article about Latendresse on March 5th, 2008:
http://allhabs.blogspot.com/2008/03/are-canadiens-hindering-latendresses.html
Have a read!!!
Thanks for the reminder Habster. I’ve added a link to your superb article.
Here is the comment I made in response to your article last March. At the time, Latendresse was playing very poorly.
March 6, 2008
Great article Habster! I really can’t believe how patient Gainey and Carbonneau have been with respect to Latendresse. Lats has spent time on every line this season (even the 2nd line and the powerplay) with disappointing results. There have been very few games this season when Latendresse hasn’t been the worst player on the ice. Even so, he has rarely been a healthy scratch and has somehow avoided a trip to Hamilton.
A few weeks ago, Pierre McGuire said that he is “absolutely shocked” that Latendresse hasn’t been sent to Hamilton. He felt that Latendresse should have started the season in Hamilton as he didn’t have a good training camp. He offered this critique of Latendresse: “has slow foot speed” “not a smart player defensively” and “plays soft for a big player”. (I would add that Latendresse rarely wins battles for the puck.) McGuire said that Gainey has done many things right but that keeping Latendresse in Montreal has been “his biggest mistake this year”.
Topham also makes a great point. What effect is this having on the Canadiens team (including taking up an important spot in the lineup without contributing)? What message is Carbo sending to a young, popular player? Even though Guillaumne’s play and effort are clearly subpar, he plays. Does that create a lazy player with a poor work ethic? What about the effect on players like Kostopoulos and Begin who outwork and (right now) are outperforming Latendresse, yet they have to fight for a spot in the lineup? Personally, I’d like to see D’Agostini (as a replacement for Latendresse) and Chipchura brought up from Hamilton.
First of all, what was the one area that Gainey (and Carbo presumably) set out to address last summer? Team size, especially up front. The other area was to acquire a natural left winger on a team that was severely overloaded on the right side. Gui was the team’s biggest forward prior to the acquisition of Laracque, and he plays left wing. It isn’t surprising that he was playing in the NHL at a young age.
He is 2 years and a few months younger than Andrei Kostitsyn, go back that period of time and see where Kostitsyn was in his career. Plus it usually takes bigger players longer to develop than smaller ones. Latendresse has big time scoring potential, but it will take time to come around. Plus he is a class act, popular with both the fans and his teammates.
The three cornerstones of the future in Montreal are Komisarek, Price, and Latendresse. Those guys are untouchable, I believe.
I’ll leave the comparison to Andrei Kostitsyn aside, because as Habster says, AK is far more skilled in every aspect of the game, and its not even close.
But you are correct rob, that power forwards take longer to develop. I also agree that Latendresse has “big time scoring potntial”. Thing is, development doesn’t just happen with time. It takes a lot of hard work to improve. So far, Latendresse has been happy to be popular, and hasn’t made the commitment to work to improve his game. From his interviews, in his mind, its seems that he does believe that he plays at a higher level than AK-46 and Higgins, which is clearly not the case.
The parallels with Ribeiro are scary. Ribeiro somehow thought that he should be the #1 center over Koivu (even after Koivu returned from his injury). He wasn’t close either yet he pouted and created friction in the locker room. I don’t want to see that happen to Latendresse.
I would have liked to see Lats go to Hamilton for a year or two and really improve to his full potential.
HI
I will have an intermediate position. I have nothing against AK but rocket seems you have something against latendresse. If he doesnt score, you send him to hamilton, and if he does, it s only due to koivu/tanguay and “imagine how better this line would be with higgins”…
I do not say latendresse is so good, i m just saying stop to pick the few bads moves and forget about the good ones…
To black or white, in my opinion ;)
I like AK but i think this start of the season is not good, price is talented and plays well but is not yet the franchise player you describe and i dont like brisebois but you are pointing only his errors and forgive the one of o byrne (it the fault of carbonneau who doesnot give him confidence…)
More importantly about the quebec origin (Again, I m NOT a quebecer !) let s be honest: I think you are right when you say that a lot of people here want people from the province to represent their team. I don t think we can blame them,the habs are part of the identity and such a big history.
I agree sometimes, some do not consider the real value of the player when they are from quebec…
BUT it appears to me you are doing the exact contrary, pretending that the guy is having ice time only because is quebecer. (I quote : We would soon learn that the name on the back of his sweater would be his ‘Get Out of Hamilton Free’ card.) Pacioretty had a good training camp but did not prooved anything yet.
I hope you get my point: Let s try to evaluate guillaume game without the name part. I agree he could be better, but claiming his favored only because he is from quebec seems to me too easy. Maybe the staff consider his potential and leave him more time…
To conclude, when we consider the stats, please remember the icing time (quite low as far as #84 is concerned), powerplay time and people on your line..
All this considered, even if you dont like the way he played/speed/effort/you name it, I think we can consider the stats of guillaume latendresse are not bad (171 gp- 34 goals-30 assists) for a 21 year guy.
Dams
You guys keep throwing out the “Kostitsyn is far more skilled than Latendresse in every aspect of the game” mantra without anything to prove it really. Gui didn’t play in the AHL, so we have no idea what he could produce there, but at the NHL level he is at least on par with Kostitsyn at this point in time, considering he has more points with less overall ice time and little power play time.
Why no suggestion of sending a guy who has just 7 points in 20 games playing on the top line and most powerplays to Hamilton to work on his game? My “thing against Kostitsyn” is that he is below average in terms of offensive production for a player in his position, and does nothing else to justify his roster spot. He isn’t that good defensively, doesn’t play a physical game, and has all the charisma of a garden slug personality wise.
The team is overloaded with young right wingers, both Kostitsyns, Latendresse, D’Agostini, Perezhogin perhaps, Lapierre would probably be better as a winger, Ryan White, Mathieu Aubin, Thomas Beauregard, Danny Kristo, Steve Quailer, Maxim Trunev, all coming up through the system. There will not be room for all of them, and if I had to choose the one to trade it would be A. Kostitsyn. He has had 5 years to prove himself, is barely hanging onto a spot, and is by far the highest paid of the group.
Hello Dams..good to hear from you again. I hate to burst your bubble but hockey is a black & white game. It's not figure skating…no marks for style nor points for poise.
I suggest that you re-read my article. I couldn't be more clear: I want Latendresse to succeed. I want to see that guy that RLR described when assessing his potential. But right now, he is not even close, and by all accounts, his development has plateaued.
I regret that Latendresse didn't have an extended stint in Hamilton so that he could work on his shortcomings without all the media and fan pressure to live up to the inflated expectations. My fear is also that Lats will start to believe the hype without putting in the work to get there. You can be certain that icetime is a consideration. Latendresse has had considerable time on every line. He also played 73 games last year which is quite high given his production, but more importantly, his level of play.
Lats has the potential and I want to see him realize it but it won't happen by itself.
Max Pacioretty hasn't proven anything..but he's in Hamilton. I was simply referring to Pierre McGuire who said it was a crime that Pacioretty didn't make the team. Did you see any of the pre-season games? He was a force. I undertand what Carbonneau means when he says that the competition has caught up to (and may have passed) Latendresse.
I may be more tolerant of O'Byrne's mistakes because they are often related to a lack of confidence. And O'B should have a bright future with this team. That's different than someone like Brisebois who clearly is a few years past his best before date. He doesn't have the skills to compete anymore, and is only here to fill a hole at a reasonable price.
As for Carey Price, I think you will have to get used to the idea that he is a franchise player and one that this team will be built around.
rob, if you are going to equate the skill level of Latendrese and Lapierre with Andrei Kostitsyn, then perhaps we have no common ground because that sounds absurd to me.
The only stat you have offered to back your claim is that Latendresse has one more point so far this season that Kostitsyn. Can you not agree that Latendresse’s points have come while playing on the team’s most productive line? And can you not agree that Kostitsyn has had the anchor of Kovalev, who is playing as the shadow of his former self, as a linemate, AND he is overcoming the effects of a concussion.
You say that we make our claims without any proof. I invite you to re-read my previous comments. I have offered stats from last season: Kostitsyn had double the number of points of Latendresse in the regular season and 8 times his output during the playoffs.
If you want to look at their NHL careers, Kostitsyn has 10 more points in 40 fewer games.
But more than statistics you can see the difference in their skills and the way they play. Kostitsyn has substantially more speed, a much better shot, more hockey sense, is agressive and is playing physical this season, has better vision, goes to the front of the net, is better defensively,…. I could continue but it seems obvious to me.
Hey Guys,
It seems like you hit a nerve, Rocket!!!…..some good points by everyone.
The bottom line with young Mr. Latendresse is simple: He has to play more consistently in his third NHL season regardless where he is playing (3rd or 1st line) or if he is a power forward.
The same theory applies to the Kostitsyn brothers, especially Andrei who has had consistency issues as well.
Nobody is expecting the “moon” from Lats when he is getting 4th or 3rd line minutes. All I expect from him is to play well at both ends of the ice and be a physical force along the boards and in front of the net….nothing more, nothing less!!!
He will never be a huge point producer in the NHL, but if he can eventually develop into a solid two way power forward with 40-60 point potential, then he will be a solid 2nd or 3rd line winger for years to come.
Honestly, I think some Hab fans have unrealistic expectations of Lats, hoping he will be another Lafleur or Richard.
In the end, Guillaume, Sergei and Andrei will have to “up” their game/development, because there are some very talented young prospects breathing down their backs for NHL ice time!!!!
Rocket said : #I hate to burst your bubble but hockey is a black & white game. It's not figure skating…no marks for style nor points for poise.#
I have to react about this :)
I was not speaking about the game (by the way i do not think its black or white, a team/ a player can play well 40 minutes out of 60, play well defensively but not offensively, etc…) but about your analysis.
I completely understood you wants lats to succeed (as a habs fan, i hope so !) and i completely agree about the too high expectations, no roster place guarantee etc…
but my point is that it seems to me that your opinion is already done, whatever the way the player is doing.
Similarly, I agree o byrne should have much more ice time the brisebois, one argument is because he s young and can still develop whereas brisebois is done and ready for retirement. BUT, still it seems to me that if brisebois is having a good game and o byrne a bad one, you will not speak about it …if the inverse situation appears, you will highlight it and deeply comment it ! ;)
I noticed you replied to many points of my post except the one considering the supposed favor treatment to latendresse due to his quebec origin so I imagine you agree at least a little bit with my arguments.
Finally, I was speaking about rather low ice time for #84 which is quite different of the number of games played. In fact I cannot find the stat anymore but I think the ratio of point/min of ice time was quite good for Latendresse last year.
End of the debate, I realize you have your style and won t change it, but just try to listen to your readers points of view and as habster said, let s hope they all increase their level. :)
Dams
I can agree on many points Dams but that my opinion is pre-determined? That’s not remotely true. My comments vary as performance does.
Take a look at the game reviews. I have been on both sides, praising and criticizing the play of someone like Josh Gorges depending on his on-ice performance. Same goes for Mathieu Dandenault. Speaking of Gorges, at one time I was critical of the trade that meant the departure of Craig Rivet. Now I have been convinced that it was a steal.
With respect to Brisebois, I think we both will be waiting a long time for him to have a good consistent performance that warrants praise. He simply doesn’t have the talent to compete. As my grandmother said ” you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.”
Bergeron and Demers relentlessly promoting Gui is ridiculous. Maybe the kid will start to believe these “analysts”. Gui belongs in Hamilton – plain and simple.
Hey guys, barely back from a bar that was supposed to be “a good place to watch hockey” I barely saw anything. Damn. Missed a good… ok… forget it.
Rocket, Latendresse doesn’t have “the potential to be a good 4th liner” as you once answered me. He has the potential to be a good 2nd liner. At this point, playing against AHL players wouldn’t help his development. It could be done as a message, but not to help him develop. It should have been done last year or two years ago.
And in your article you totally forgot to mention that Guillaume, just line Pacioretty, had a very solid training camp (close to 3 points per game) but was still sent back to his junior team. He didn’t get a free pass. He improved on his second year and was, at that time, the best player possible to fill up the spot open.
And about Max Pac, I refuse to see his Hamilton stint as anything else than a good move. He played only 37 games in NCAA the season before and playing a full 100 games in a season (pre and post season included) can only be beneficial. Also, if he played this year, he would have ended up a free agent at 26 instead of 27 if he wait a year.
As for Brisebois, he does a solid job. I’ll have some charts later on but he doesn’t play as bad as you make him look like. I saw a stat about how many goals are scored against for every 60 minutes of icetime and Breezer is second on the team. What I like about him right now is that he keep things simple. Dump and chase instead of tricky zone entry. He knows his limitations and play within them.
And for Christ sake guys, he IS the defensemen with the LEAST ice time on the team. O’Byrne is getting around 18 minutes these days. How much more do you want?
PS: Rocket, your granny has weird sayings…
Oh and Rob, I like Latendresse play, I think Rocket is very hard on him but even I won’t go as far as to say he is more talented than Andrei Kostitsyn. A more honest worker if you ask me, but never as talented. Andrei Kostitsyn should be a dominant player, Lats should be a good addition on a talented line.
And Kostitsyn has a physical edge to his game. If you look at his best games this year, you’ll see it was when he used his body to hit (ask Mike Richards) or move bodies (ask Zdeno Chara) to create space. Or even hit just to take a man off his game (ask Marian Hossa). But when he doesn’t use his body, he usually has an okay game at best.
And God I would love to see him use his laser shot more often.
Please read more carefully BB.
I clearly said that I hope that Latendresse realizes his full potential. I hope that he is successful and is the power forward that the Canadiens have been looking for.
It is also clear that Latendresse is not close to achieving that potential anytime soon. I said that’s ok as he is young. The problem is that he is not on a path to improve his skills.
I acknowledged that Hamilton is not an option now (although it would have been at the beginning of the season according to McGuire).
So if we all want him to succeed, why all the hysteria and sensitivity? Yes, he is a fan favorite and apparent ‘center of the universe’ but why should Latendresse be above all criticism?
It is interesting to me as there is no one in the NHL who has received more unjustified criticism than Saku Koivu. Yet when Koivu is unfairly criticized (and I dont believe anything I’ve written is unfair about Lats), there certainly isn’t the same kind of outcry.
A wise lady BB. Pay attention to her sayings…and you may learn something.
I’ve been watching the Habs for fifty years. I played Junior hockey and then Senior until I was 30. I know hockey. Latendresse is the least talented player in history to have never played a game in the minors. He has no shot, he skates very poorly, he is too slow to forecheck and he can’t keep up with his linemates.
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